BLM marched so Stacy Clarke could…cheat?

Toronto’s Black respectability class tries and fails to make disgraced police leader a Black freedom fighter

Idil Abdillahi, El Jones, and Desmond Cole

⬆️ Hit the play button (▶) above to listen to the interview

Full transcript below:

News clip 1 00:01

Superintendent Stacy Clark has apologized and today we heard that she was acting out of desperation according to her defense lawyer when she chose to help half a dozen police officers to cheat on their promotional job interviews.

News clip 2 00:17

It's alleged that superintendent Park took photos of interview questions and send them just six candidates up for promotion. Her lawyer telling the tribunal Clark who was the first black female to achieve the rank of superintendent with the Toronto Police is extremely remorseful. That said the issues of systemic racism she's experienced throughout her career played a role in what she did.

News clip 3 00:38

One question according to case materials obtained by CTV News, actually about how an officer would approach the Police Services fractured relationship with black and indigenous communities. The filing show clerk sent the constables the information as little as half an hour before the scheduled interviews.

El Jones 00:54

Yeah, of course, the argument being made is essentially white people get away with these things. So we should get away with it. I shouldn't be corrupt to. And again, so if you knew the white people are cheating, you could have recorded them. You could have got evidence of that now that you're in a position on these interviews and leaked that I would be interested in that if you'd been able to show us, Hey, did you know that like 80% of white candidates are actually cheating on this test.

Desmond Cole 01:17

But then you'd be going against the system instead of trying to remain a leader within it, right?

Idil Abdillahi 01:22

Tht part. These people are not interested in the same thing we are y'all. And I think we just have to get to that point much faster.

Desmond Cole 01:37

Okay, breaking news, everybody. The Toronto Police are racist. I know. I know. I don't believe it either. It's a shock to the system. But apparently it's true. We've We've learned that there's racism going on in the Toronto Police and the way to address it, just cheat the system. At least that's what Stacy Clark did a couple of years ago. She's a superintendent of the police or at least she was a superintendent of the Toronto Police. She's due for a demotion now. But on a sergeant's exam a couple of years, Stacy Clark, who was a superintendent at the time, decided that she was going to as a mentor to several black people trying to take the sergeant's exam. Six of them actually, Stacy Clark decided I'm going to give you guys the answers to the sergeant's exams, the questions and the answers, actually, so that you can, you know, do you do well, I guess so you can ace it. The only problem was that Stacy Clark got caught doing this. We still don't know how she got caught. We're gonna talk about that. But, um, she did get caught. And now she's facing a disciplinary hearing, which is kind of ongoing, and there's been a lot of news about it. Her job is actually not at stake, if you can believe that. So you can, again, shockingly cheat as a police officer and not face consequences. I mean, we're all stunned at the lack of police accountability, of course. But yeah, she's not facing any loss of job, it's more about how badly she's going to get demoted. But a number of people high profile, visible people in the black community have decided to come to Stacey clerics defense to even call her a hero in the pages of the Toronto Star. And we have some thoughts. So I'm joined by Adel, Abdullah, he was up. Hey, how are you? I'm good. And L. Jones is here to Hey, what's up? Yeah, who wants to go first about what's going on? This is a black woman, superintendent of the of the police, the highest ranking black woman in the Toronto Police Service, who made this decision that she was going to give these questions and answers to six black constables who are going to take this test in 2021. And so this is a conversation being framed around anti black racism, and the idea that she's only being punished, because not because she cheated, but because she's a black woman. So in her argument, you know, there has been consistent unfair hiring in the Toronto Police Service. And her giving these six people the questions and answers to a Sergeant's test was the way to, in her words level the playing field.

Idil Abdillahi 04:14

So So I guess I have my first question. First of all, I have a lot of questions. I have a lot of comments, all the things right. I guess first, I want to start with like, what was the heroic thing was the heroic thing, giving them the questions, and the answer's Is that Is that what it is, is the heroic thing, but I'm trying to understand both the anti blackness which she's alleging that she's rectifying plus, I want to understand, like, what was the hero part of it? Right? Because to be clear, like she said, so she has she's not denying that she did this, that she sort of gave the answers and the questions that part I understand, right. Yep. Yes,

El Jones 04:54

the argument is that since the police service is so unjust, and there is a ports showing that black candidates get hired at significantly lower rates. So the argument they're making is that because the system is unfair, she selflessly decided to help black candidates by cheating. And as was said, since black people don't get anywhere, using the system and quote, you know, have always won through civil disobedience, then this is being equated to an act of civil disobedience. Now, of course, the irony of that is, she's a superintendent, part of the job is, of course, I mean, they're in police leadership, they make decisions around deploying police. So during the uprising of 2020, where black people got arrested from everything from protesting to, you know, removing statues, the Police are deployed to crush civil disobedience and have been deployed to crush civil disobedience in every single black uprising in history. So one of the sort of grotesque glories of this trial, or this hearing, is that we're now seeing police, there was a significant amount of arguing, for example, using George Floyd. So we have the spectacle of a police officer, using the uprising for George Floyd, where people were met with mass arrests, and saying that, because of George Floyd, this black police officers experiencing anti black racism in the wake of George Floyd and and therefore should not be punished for cheating, because she is engaged in an act of civil disobedience.

News clip 4 06:33

As Clark told us, when we first met, it took her years of building partnerships to try and bridge the gap between Toronto Police and the black community. Then the cries heard around the world by George Floyd,

Stacy Clarke 06:45

you know, you're trying so hard to instill a certain trust and then in nine minutes, gone.

News clip 4 06:53

Floyd's death in Minneapolis hit home for Clarke,

Stacy Clarke 06:57

It jerked my system, and in a way that nothing has.

El Jones 07:02

So it's a real, grotesque kind of shifting of what civil disobedience is, first of all, the notion that a cop and a senior cop for that matter, is somehow engaged in civil disobedience by cheating to create more high level black cops, who can then deploy more cops against black people who are protesting. And that's the argument. So yes, it's nonsensical. We

Desmond Cole 07:29

know that Mark Saunders took a knee at the end of his tenure as a police chief before he was chased out. And before the force, the rank and file said they didn't want him there anymore. He took a knee to do the exact same thing to be like, you know, I as a police leader, recognize all of this George Floyd shit is not going to stop us from cracking down on black people. It's not going to stop us from trying to delegitimize their struggle, or or maybe they are actually naive enough to want to argue that there will be less police violence, when there's more black people in leadership and of course, Mark Saunders, Peter, slowly, several other people Keith Ford, in the leadership of the police hasn't changed that. So it's it's a very strange argument on its face,

El Jones 08:12

and Saunders, in fact showed up out of his retirement to testify on her behalf.

News clip 5 08:17

Retired police Chief Mark Saunders told the tribunal Clark is an excellent leader whose misconduct was out of character.

Stacy Clarke 08:23

This is an act of desperation.

News clip 5 08:27

This retired Toronto Police Superintendent and Mark Saunders, were both asked by Clark's lawyer, if she should be returned to the rank of Superintendent both said Yes,

Desmond Cole 08:36

Mark Saunders, the former black police chief in the city is there testifying on on Clark's behalf now, he I don't think was a part of anything having to do with this scandal. But he's one of several people who are essentially acting as character witnesses and racial experts, even though they have nothing to say about her actual misconduct, which she's already acknowledged. So it's just kind of this like parade of black people being like now Now, don't get us angry, don't make us call you racist. But it'll I think you had like one of the best actual breakdowns of this whole problem, like you tweeted about this. And I thought the way that you explained it made a lot of sense in the way that this is being like portrayed and and the way that people are fighting for superintendent Stacy Clark, actually want to read what you wrote. Yeah, no,

Idil Abdillahi 09:29

absolutely wonderful. Do you wanna read it first?

Desmond Cole 09:30

I got it right here. So you said let's be real. This is an HR dispute meaning human resources. This is a human resources dispute, which will likely result in minimal repercussions for all parties. They don't reprimand killers. Why would they reprimand a cheater from amongst their ranks? This is not about the black struggle are showing up for black people. Nope. The fact that we are being asked to entertain superintendent Clark's intervention as radical or important is a farce. In fact, her actions simply reinforced tropes about black people lacking qualifications or capabilities, and nefariously finding themselves in posts that they are not qualified for. What she did is publicly reinforced by those white supremacist tropes. People like Clark are about racing to the top using representational politics and blackness, both in their Ascendance into these roles, and in their defense of unethical behavior, all of which are deeply anti black. As someone invested in abolition, I'm not interested in arbitration or participating in the critiques of this particular case individually. Instead, my focus is on pointing out how fundamentally fraudulent and messed up the system is. This case is but one example of how policing the policing system is ill equipped to police itself. I thought that was fair.

Idil Abdillahi 10:47

Oh, thanks for that, I appreciate it. But maybe if I if I can just touch on a couple of things. And even just to go back, a bit more to like what l mentioned, which is actually you mentioned as well, which is the bulk one sort of the evocation of George Floyd, you know, I really wish that people would let this man rest. We keep drawing out his name for so many things. And doing so in a way that is just absolutely bankrupt and not at all, like, not, like doesn't even put into context what we're talking about. Right. So when when people keep talking about George Floyd, the one thing that we're not seeing, even though we all know, it is that, you know, the police killed George Floyd. Right. So to hear now that any police officers are kind of deploying his death in any kind of way, as is his loss of life in any kind of way, I think is for me, sort of one of the first places to be like, what a like, what an out of place way of like thinking about this. And even as you spoke about Chief Saunders, and the taking of the knee, and all of these things, like it's also not lost on me that it's police knees, that actually killed folks. And we know that, right? What how

El Jones 12:00

she didn't do some grand gesture, after George Floyd was murdered. Right. So if there was a time to engage in so called civil disobedience and disruption of the police system, one would think it wouldn't be cheating on police tests, one would think that the moment to, you know, disrupt the system might have been in that moment where she could have I don't know, I mean, if you're gonna say civil disputes, there's many things she could have done, that would have undermined the police and give them power to the protests in the street. And she chose not to do them to all

Desmond Cole 12:29

She could have called for defunding of the police. But maybe maybe a superintendent of the police wouldn't do that. And this is what's so hilarious about this situation, is that these people want to be radicals at the same time as they want to lead the racist institution.

Idil Abdillahi 12:43

But also like, I don't like I don't know that we I don't know that she or anybody else would do that. Because I think that the big part about this, folks is that like, ultimately, all of these people are trying to get their own individual like, like move up in life, their own come up, right, like, that's what's happening here. So she's one person that has power, and in her in this grand gesture that she's supposed to be doing is for other people to get employment in higher positions within the police. Right. And so I don't know that they would call for abolition I will I don't not that I don't know they wouldn't, that's I don't think that that's what they're, that's what their investment is in, right. But what they do want us to focus on is the fact that what's happening to her now is anti blackness. And look, let's be very clear, of course, I believe it's anti blackness in the way that it is playing out, etc. You know, I think anti blackness lives everywhere, all the time. And in all situations, including when we mess up ourselves, including when we do the wrong things ourselves, like anti blackness still lives in that space. Right. So I'm not at all negating that. But what I'm also not going to do is, you know, fall in line with the idea that the only way those black people would have been able to be successful in that role is by her having given those responses because I have more faith in black people period point,

El Jones 14:05

right, that they haven't even taken the test. So first of all, if this woman's gonna screenshot something, you screenshot that or take pictures of the test answers grow, you could have taken pictures of the disciplinary records that we can't get. You could have given us the names of all the officers that kill and harm black people whose names we don't know. You know what I mean? Like I'm saying that if you're going to commit some grand act of the private picture taking, there's so many things that we need to know about the police that you could have taken pictures of as a high level police officers, they said one step below a deputy. how much information do you know that we've been trying to get our hands on that you could have gotten us officers that are shot black people have been promoted up the ranks, you know, officers that have incidents of racism inside the police force that we don't know about chose, again, not to any of that screenshot, I mean, I get some screenshots took pictures of the test answers, and as you've just pointed out, they didn't even get a chance to take The test and take that even further, which is what I've been saying is let's talk about what's on these tests, please higher ranks. It's things like police procedure, familiarity with the law. So the notion that we're going to have a bunch of cops that can answer what a presumably necessary questions, and I would assume, like pretty obvious questions about things like police procedure and police policy, I don't want a bunch of cops, black or whatever race to be stopping me who couldn't pass a test on what the rules of a traffic stopper. But

Desmond Cole 15:35

this is the great, great irony and what Stacy Clark story is here that I so dying to get into and you guys have both talked about how this is being framed as her benevolence to sick six black people who were beneath her in the system to try and like lift them up. So let's actually talk about that, because Stacy Clark's claim is that she acted alone, right? None of these six constables who she gave these test questions and answers to, according to her, asked her to do it, or knew that it was coming. This was her action and hers alone to try. And as she said, level the playing field for them. So I want to talk about that. Suppose ID Act of benevolence. Because if you just brought it up if you actually studied for this test, because you're a competent person, and you didn't expect somebody was going to be sending sending you the questions and answers in the 11th hour, how do you feel getting a text message from one of your superiors being like, here, I'm helping you cheat. The idea actually erases any autonomy, or decision making or feelings that black people might have about being put in that situation against their will. Because if they didn't conspire with you, that means that you just chose to put black people in that situation. And in fact, you chose to endanger their own careers, their livelihoods, because you thought what that they couldn't do like witches it? Did you think that they're the cream of the crop, as Stacy Clark has described in her testimony, and that they were the best of the best. And you were worried for some reason that they wouldn't get chosen? Or did you think that they couldn't pass the test? Which is why you gave them the answers? Because if you thought they were the best, you wouldn't need to give them the answers, you would let them write the test. Do amazing on it. And then if they didn't get promoted, after that, you'd be like, you see, guys, look how great they scored. Look how great their applications were. And they still didn't get in. But because she helped them cheat. We'll never know now how good or bad of a candidate that they were, because she compromised their ability and presumably put six black people in a place that they didn't ask to be in and like the selfishness and recklessness of that is being completely overlooked by a lot of the people who are cheerleading for her.

Idil Abdillahi 17:51

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. For sure. I think that that. I think that that absolutely makes them precarious. I also think, just in terms of like, that particular example, is also like, what are you supposed to do? Or what does this story tell us about what happens when a high ranking officer asks you to engage in misconduct, right? Is that, you know, are people just bound to follow? Or is that a kind of expectation, right, like an institutional expectation within, within the police more more broadly, which also, then just has me ask a bunch of other questions more generally, about, like, how often is it that these things happen? And how often? How often is it that people just go on to get along? Right? So I think for sure, there's the part around, if if people don't have any agency in that, in that act, of course, you're you're putting them at risk. And I also think the other part of it is to say, like, you know, that that tells me something about a system that operates in in that kind of way, so I don't know, I think Yeah.

El Jones 18:59

And that's like, something that came up, right, because one of the things that she says, is that essentially, while the white people are cheating, so she's like, I assumed that they will also getting the answers. And then the police lawyer, the people who are want her punished, obviously severe more severely said, Well, you know, basically like, do you know that? And she said, Well, no, I assumed it. And he's like, Well, did you report it? And I think that's, I mean, the obvious but interesting question, because again, this is somebody who's being valorized, for so called Engaging in civil disobedience is essentially saying, Well, I was leveling the playing field because white people cheat all the time on these tests, but I didn't report it. So I'm not willing to break the thin blue line in that way. I'm still backing the blue, but then the other sort of hilarious thing, I mean, both hilarious and gross, is that of course they have to do all this arguing about what the penalty should be like everything from you know, dismissal to just being busted down around for it like so what her side wants, is for her to just be demoted one. and rank for a year and then guaranteed her position back. And then the argument, obviously from the people, lawyers for the police is that it should be a much more severe penalty than that. Because she was in a leadership position and essentially roped other junior officers into this. So they're saying there isn't a precedent for this kind of cheating. Everybody else who's cheated, has basically only cheated for themselves. And this is more of like a cheating ring. But what's really funny, but outrageous, and as I said, Gross is that, of course, to have this argument, they have to read all these precedent cases. So you know, it's been two days of them reading all these cases of how often police cheat how often police have tried to fix tickets driven drunk, like all of this misconduct. And I don't know if this is the same in Ontario, but in Nova Scotia, when CBC tried to get the disciplinary records, the HRP Halifax, regional, police refused, and they had to take them to court. Like they refused the foi, and they had to actually take them to court and get an order for them to release these records. And I'm like, Well, I guess we can see why they resist it. Because there is, in fact, rampant cheating on these tests. Not only that, but like rampant abuse of public resources, rampant corruption on the force. And now we're hearing all of these cases being read to us as they debate what her sentence should be. So I mean, it's entirely embarrassing for the police force. Of course, obviously, we don't normally get I don't think these trials are usually as publicized. So even though I'm sure some of these may be public decisions, we haven't really had access to them in this volume. So I just think it's kind of funny to listen to like two days of arguing, where they're like, well, this person is not quite the same case. But they were an earpiece, and got somebody else to feed them the answers. And this person, you know, like all these completely bizarre cases, which is the other thing, my final thing, I'll let you talk, Desmond is, can we talk about You're a cop, you presumably know how police work, you presumably investigate people, you took pictures, and sent them to people's phone over text? Like, what's your channel? Like? don't you investigate people every day? Who have conversations about crimes and drug dealing on their phones that you guys get access to? So I'm worried about competency here in terms of the cops, like, like, and they will tell us how she got caught? Which is a whole nother

Desmond Cole 22:20

thing? Yeah, yeah, we got to get into, we need to

Idil Abdillahi 22:23

get into that. That

El Jones 22:25

I'm like, you would think cops would be better at this stuff in terms of not getting caught? Like do you not use the experience you have of catching people to know how to like, evade the system.

Desmond Cole 22:34

Impunity is the greatest barrier to police having to think, because when you actually believe that you will not be punished when you think you're above all of these things. You don't have to come up with a brilliant plan, you don't have to think about how to hide it, or how to protect yourself, when you're used to people going along with what you say, because you told them to people keeping their mouths shut in the institution, you don't have to come up with a brilliant plan. But yeah, the media has not been able to figure out how Stacy Clark got caught. And this has been something that's fascinated all of us, right, because they keep saying that. You know, they have been trying to find this out from the police. But the police are kind of being kind of tight lipped about how Stacy Clark got caught. I have a theory though. And again, it is only a theory. But um, the most likely person in my eyes, who would be trying to turn Stacy Clark in for doing this would be one of those six people who she shared the test with, obviously, because what if I don't want to be in your little cheating ring? What if I'm very well prepared, and I am by the way prepared to like, take the outcome of the system that I am a part of imagine that like, so imagine I'm taking this test, just being like, I'm gonna do my best and let the chips fall where they may. If you're in that situation, and then you get implicated in this cheating thing. without your consent, you have every reason to report the superintendent who helped you. Because otherwise if people find out that this is going on and you're not telling, then you might lose your job, you might lose your career, you might be disgraced. It doesn't make any sense. The person who has the most impetus to tell is actually the person who's being assisted but never asked for it. So I think that that's a really important part of this that we don't know right now. Yeah, that part of this has been like very wild to me. This idea that like, these poor police officers were just trying to get a leg up and I'm like, maybe they didn't want one. But they're being like infantilized here.

Idil Abdillahi 24:38

Yeah, I think for sure. I like, Well, I think that I am sorry, I completely agree with you that I think it would be like one of the six people except that you know what that's meant. I'm not as nice as you. So I don't necessarily think absolutely not. I do not like, I don't know, I think something popped off. Okay. I think that Like, I don't know, I think one of those six people got into something, and I think that something happened and that information somehow can either protect or explain or something. And so someone snitched, you know, to use their language, quote, unquote, lol. But like, I think I think that's what happened, or I think somehow it got found out. And then the other thing that I think is that if somehow these fields, the police found out about the other police, then I think that tells me something about, you know, whether or not they had superintendent Clark under surveillance for for any reason at all, or what would have prompted that. And so that again, right, like, I think that I have a different set of questions if that's the case, but more than anything, I think that it is really strange that nobody wants to tell us how it is that this woman has come into the situation and why the entire public knows about it, and why there's these, you know, hearings, but we have no idea about how we've come how this whole thing was found out. And I think that that's a really important question, because I think that that can speak to a whole host of other things that might be helpful for the public to know.

El Jones 26:15

I'm inclined to also along with Desmond think that the reason why it's being kept quiet is because one of the recipients whistle blew, like told, and they don't want that person to then be subject to potential retaliation. But the other possibility, of course, is there's multiple pieces to this. So not only is there that she took pictures of the answers and texted them to people. It's also that she had a close family friend, somebody who was extremely close to many years, and went to their house for I believe, three days and to do mock interviews using the questions that were being used, that she knew because she was sitting on the panel and then did not recuse herself from the panel.

News clip 6 26:57

It's further alleged that in early December, after sitting in on a number of interview panels, she met with one of those candidates at her personal residence on three consecutive days, and conducted a mock interview with that applicant using real questions from those interview panels.

El Jones 27:12

So the other possibility is that of course, somebody found out that like another cop, potentially a white cop, whoever, and said, Wait a minute, like, why is this woman on the panel like, you know that that's her childhood friend, or that that's her family friend. And then in the course of investigating that, they discovered the other misconduct. So because we know they eventually sees her phone, like they asked for the phone, they have the screenshots, they also have her telling at least one person delete these texts. So she literally knew that she was concealing evidence. But yeah, the not dismissing herself in the panel, while she knew she was in conflict, may well have been what got her cloud as well, because that would be something that anybody could say, well, that person told me before that they're a close family friend, why is she sitting on the interview? And our answer to why she remained sitting on the interview and did not remove herself was I wasn't the only person on the panel. So it's not like I was the only person making the decision.

Desmond Cole 28:05

Right? So if I have a conflict of interest, it's fine, because there's two other people here who don't and it's fine for me to stay, even though I have a conflict. Like, it's just, it's just pure impunity. And what also bothers me is the way that Stacy Clark is centering herself in in a situation which is about her getting caught, like the racism that she apparently has witnessed and experience and endured, is what made her do this to other people again, did they ask for you to do this to them? Why do you get to make a decision based on your own experiences in your career of how other people's careers should go without their consent? Like, it's just so twisted to me, and I want to ask all the people who want to defend Stacy Clark, I want to ask, you know, for example, Jason Pete, who is the person who wrote in the Toronto Star piece entitled, I think superintendent Stacy Clark is a hero for trying to help black officers. How has this helped black officers exactly, not that I give a shit, I don't fuck the police. But assuming that this was the goal, black officers are looked on better or worse now in the Toronto Police Service after this having happened. Black police officers are going to be dealt with with more scrutiny or less scrutiny, they're going to have an easier time now or a harder time since Stacy clerk did this. So the question of whether or not Stacy Clark actually helped the six people that she helped cheat on this sergeant's exam? That's not an abstract question is here's a story a news story from last year from CTV and John Woodward. And the title of the story is Toronto constable demoted for a role in cheating promotions exam. An officer who admitted to playing a part in the scheme to cheat the Toronto Police Service promotions procedure has been temporarily demoted instead, Constable Horace Harvey, who had already pleaded guilty to discredit will conduct for his part in getting special treatment from a high ranking officer will be busted down from a first class constable to a second class for a period of six months according to a decision by superintendent shade Brenton of the Toronto police's disciplinary tribunal. You know, I didn't hear to your point a deal about how this is about like, class and protecting a certain kind of person in the institution. I didn't hear all these folks who are rarely supporting Stacy Clark now even mentioned the name of Horace Harvey or say that Horace Harvey for receiving these answers and for his part of this shouldn't have been demoted, which he was. So

Idil Abdillahi 30:45

quick question y'all why? So why is Horace named and not the other folks like why do they get initials and not? What is going on?

El Jones 30:55

He's the most complicit here because he should have said she should can't be on my panel. Right? So I think it's that the others, like didn't solicit, you can't help if somebody sends you a photo over text. Now, obviously, they presumably should have reported it, and potentially did. But he would have known this as a 20 year family friend, he would have been aware of the rules, and obviously did not say she Oh, because she also comes to his house like three times for three days in a row during the process. And they'd been told you can have no more context. So presumably, everybody's been told she's been told you can't talk to your mentees. I assume the mentees have also been told you can have no more contact. Then she comes to his house, and does mock interviews with him using the actual questions that have been given to them as members of the panel. And he obviously is like an active part of that. So I think it's that he is at that point more than just someone who received things he's actively complicit in cheating. So he gets busted for cheating.

Idil Abdillahi 32:00

That's interesting that these folks have a lot like, Oh, my goodness, I want I still want to know how they know what was going on inside the house, too. And I'm sure maybe someone admitted it was the schools, whatever. But I have a lot of questions about all of that.

El Jones 32:15

I think that people knew they were family friends, like this is not like genius level scheming. Can you just like your best friend is sitting on your job interview, someone's going to notice and be friends? Like, where do you at his birthday party? Like everybody that like this is a family friend, like are there all these pictures of you guys together on Facebook? The battle?

Desmond Cole 32:37

You're in a no win situation because you decided to join the police force. And now you want to tell us how? Yes, maybe they are surveilling you Stacy Clark as a black woman, maybe they are treating you a lot worse than they would treat somebody else in your position. But it's the police. Why do you expect good treatment and honest and fair treatment from the police when you're witnessing what they do to our community everyday? Why do you think that you would be the exception? That's what like really gets me in all of this.

El Jones 33:03

Well, yeah, this is again, what's so galling, is because it wasn't the police that took to the streets in 2020, or in 2017 or 2013. Or after? Well, they did just right, or after, you know, like we couldn't think of the you know, hundreds of times that black people have been in the streets protesting these things. So it was, yes, it is black people that have put their bodies on the line. And when we called the police racist, we were surveyed by the police, you are like, quite literally surveyed by the police. You know, we get put on activist lists. We have a reputation smeared were blamed for the increase of crime. It's activists that mean that we can do our jobs correctly, we get death threats, we get all of these things, only for now in this hearing for a member of the put that police force to turn around and say, Oh, well, we all know that the police are racist. In fact, they had to apologize for their racism. So you can argue that police are racist so therefore, Stacy Clark is experiencing racism again. I don't doubt she experiences racism in the police force. We know that because we know there's all kinds of like lawsuits out by black cops and nobody doubts that we know that. But again, the grotesquerie of the same people that use when we speak about please racism, use that to justify us being threatened harassed, our reputation smeared have our job loss all of those things and we do all of that work. Not so that we can actually we don't get any justice what we get is Stacy Clark getting a lesser punishment. So BLM marched so that Stacy Clark could cheat.

Desmond Cole 34:43

Yeah I apparently that's the message

Idil Abdillahi 34:49

Wow, damn El! Say that again,

El Jones

like I couldn't care less about like the police tests or how they go I don't doubt the process is racist, but I'm just like offended once again by like the lack of competency here like if you're organizing a march against the police man, you got to take to signal channels you got to go meet people in person with no phone, like make an effort.

Idil Abdillahi 35:11

If the messiness is for me, it's the messiness of it all for me.

Desmond Cole 35:14

She did. She didn't use WhatsApp, I mean apparently an encrypted service.

Idil Abdillahi 35:21

Delete man, delete, come on, disappear

35:25

.

Desmond Cole 35:25

Actually, she did set the message to disappear, too late, too late for everybody involved. I want to also talk about the fact that people who say that they themselves are fighting against police brutality, fighting against police misconduct are in these hearings, supporting Stacy Clark and doing media. And here I'm talking chiefly about Kingsley Gilliam of the black action Defense Committee. The black action Defense Committee is not the same organization that it was when it was founded, you know, in the 80s. But the name lives on in people like Kingsley Gilliam and Valerie Steele. And they've been at this hearing, supporting superintendent Stacy Clark, and even doing media to try and defend why it was okay, or why she shouldn't face the same level of punishment that she's up for. And I want everybody to think about why people who are part of an apparently police accountability organization are in a hearing room arguing for a black police superintendent. And I feel like the obvious answer is that this isn't about the black community as a whole. It's about a smaller sub segment of the black community in Toronto, who feel like they are entitled to these positions in institutions, because of historic racism that Stacy Clark and others are owed, to be able to really do anything that there's nothing that they can do. That equals what the white racist individuals in that place do. And so they should always be given a pass. But again, tomorrow, while you're arguing for Stacy Clark as a cop not to bind the not to receive the full punishment. When one of our people get beat down in the street tomorrow, are we not going to see Kingsley Gilliam on the news saying this is horrible. And we need to look into this. But everything gets individualized. So when a black person gets beat up by the police, it's not about the system, it's about the individuals who did it. And now we need an investigation. But here you are fighting so hard. So that one police leader who happens to be black will not face the full accountability that is due to her, because you want to talk about systemic racism in that case, and I need to call that out. Because this is not the first time that latest incarnation of the black action Defense Committee are doing this. And I wonder what Dudley laws and Charles Roche and Sharon a hall and other original members of that group who are not out here making a fool out of themselves. I wonder what they would think of this conduct? I really do. And I'm sorry to say that about the folks who are doing this, but it's their choice to be out here. And to be trying to rep this as a black community in solidarity behind clerk which it absolutely is not.

El Jones 38:06

Yeah, and of course, the argument being made as essentially white people get away with these things. So we should get away with it. I'll just be corrupt to man. Yeah. So and again, so if you knew the white people are cheating, you could have reported them, you could have got evidence of that now that you're in a position on these interviews and leaked to that I would be interested in that if you'd been able to show us, Hey, did you know that like 80% of white candidates are actually cheating on this test. So all

Desmond Cole 38:31

you then you'd be going against the system, instead of trying to remain a leader within it, you know?

Idil Abdillahi 38:35

That part? These people are not interested in the same things we are y'all. And I think we just have to get to that point much faster, they would never do those things because these are not their investments, right? Their investments are in cheating. So people can like rise higher into the ranks, right? About the individual person, they're not interested in saving, or rioting or doing any of those things. I cannot like I can't bring myself to, to understand that they're interested in deploying that rhetoric to save themselves absolutely bad, I believe for sure.

El Jones 39:12

But, of course, a group of like, you know, these are all older people. And then part of the rhetoric is she's so important to the community because she's this bridge between the police and, you know, black people and I'm like, Yeah, so like, are you really trying to tell me that like, you know, teenage black boys in the street. So like calling up Stacy Clark, because I don't see them testifying for you know, so you also have this level where you have this respectable level and I'm not saying black people don't come in contact with police at any level as we know we do. We got stopped all kinds of things. But I think there's a difference in a bunch of like professors and community leaders now coming out and trying to say that, you know, Stacy Clark is so important. She's a unicorn, as was said, because she has this rare quality of connecting the police Yeah, you talk to anybody that she arrested.

Desmond Cole 40:03

This is what they said about a certain Ontario Court judge, who also engaged in acts that were contrary to his judicial office while being a judge. Justice McDonald McLeod's name has actually been brought up multiple times in this hearing, in part, and you knew this was coming. Because they brought an expert witness to testify for superintendent Stacy Clark. And it was none other than Wendell Adjetey, who also was a witness of the exact same kind. When Justice Donald MacLeod was facing his second, Ontario judicial council hearing for potential misconduct. And Wendell Adjetey does the same thing in all of these hearings, I actually really wonder if he's getting paid to do this, because he's doing a lot of work for folks, under the auspices of being an expert witness when he's not an expert on policing. In this case, he's certainly not an expert in the rules of judiciary, in the case of Justice, Donald McLeod, but he keeps coming to the defense specifically, of these really high up institutional black people, and essentially threatening the institutions that might punish them by being like, we're all going to see you as racist. we idolize these people, we all love these people, we look up to them, and you better not hold them accountable, or else the whole community is going to say that you're racist, and Wendell agitates testimony was ripped by the lawyer for the prosecution side, in his closing, where he basically said, you need to take what this guy says with extreme caution, because he's advocating for Stacy Clark, he's not giving expert testimony about or he doesn't know anything about her situation of cheating. And he's not a police expert. He's just doing advocacy. And I thought this was very embarrassing. But the lawyers evidence that Wendell Wendell agitate was doing advocacy and not just being a neutral witness was that he brought up a two page piece of paper, essentially a speech when he came to the witness stand. And when he was asked the first question by prosecutor, he just began reading his two page statement. And he was interrupted a few times during the hearing by the other lawyer objecting to this idea that he was doing advocacy. And it's very tiresome to see this level of solidarity for the elite, black people in Toronto, when there are a lot of other people who would never get a sniff of this kind of, you know, black support. Well,

Idil Abdillahi 42:35

I think Desmond like, well, first of all, I want to come back to the What do you mean? Like, what do you mean, he started reading a speech, like

Desmond Cole 42:43

I am telling you,

Idil Abdillahi 42:45

bro, I don't understand!

Desmond Cole 42:46

The thing about this man, who is a doctor, but he's a history specialist. Right? That's his actual forte, not the rules of policing, and whether or not Stacy Clark ought to be punished. But I think that the kind of EDI systems that we have put into place, in recent years really allow for a Wendell Adjetey to have a role in all of these kinds of hearings, because now it's like, well, we're honoring the realities of black people. And we're honoring the realities of anti black racism. And we want to hear how this has a larger impact on the community. When really, as has been said, I don't know if people who have been arrested who have been charged, who have been beaten and who have been criminalized by the police who are black. I don't know if their worry today is about whether or not a black superintendent is going to be demoted one rank or two. But yeah, my man brought a speech to the hearing where he's supposed to be giving expert testimony and just started reading off of it when he was asked a question, it was a prepared set of remarks, because it doesn't matter what you know, the situation is, this man knows how to defend institutional black people. And he knows how to scare black institutions into being like, we're watching you and we're ready to call you racist. We've got the racist bullets loaded in the gun.

El Jones 44:03

So we saw the same thing again, in previous case with the judge where we had a number of lawyers and other professionals that presumably know better, but then decide to argue essentially, that cheating or not obeying the rules of your profession is okay. Which going back to Adele's the tweet, you read off the top is so dangerous and disingenuous for people in professions. If, you know so we're talking about systemic racism, anti blackness, which is through every institution, I would doubt that Dr. Agitate, gives his grad students the answers for their comprehensive tests,

Desmond Cole 44:42

but if he did, it would be an act of liberation and resistance...

44:45

I doubt that he allows them to plagiarize or you know, on dissertations or theses because while you know, black people don't make it in the academy, and we are extremely underrepresented in the academy space, but that doesn't mean that we get to plagiarize or fail. or teaching evaluations, or he writes to students comprehensive exams. And I'm like, he wouldn't do that. And if you accuse him of doing that, I'm sure he would be extremely insulted and say, like, I would never do something like that, just like black lawyers would say, I would never not obey, you know, the old side, take, but somebody that goes out the window, and we have this pretense that rules don't apply to us in the same way when we're in these professions. And as, as Adele said, this is this incredibly dangerous fire to play with, when we're constantly already being told that we're affirmative action hires, that we're not competent, that we don't belong here that, you know, we're completely unqualified to be in the places we are. And now you have black people arguing actually, that's true. When we get to these places, we can't be held accountable in the same ways. And the rules don't apply to us in the same way. And we can't pass the test in the same way as other people, we need to cheat, we need to lie we need to be corrupt. And when we do that, you can't be mad at us, because we're black.

Desmond Cole 45:56

Everybody who I see advocating for this to try to represent what they are saying here. They would just say that it's about the broken system. This is about fixing the broken system. So apparently, when John Tory was still the mayor, there was a plan in the Toronto Police Service for these Sergeant's exams to give everybody not the answers, but the questions in advance that that was the plan. It never happened. And Stacy Clark cited that plan never coming to pass as the reason why she needed to help these six people cheat as part of a again, as she said, leveling the playing field. It is really like gross to say that, like all these things are justified. But then why did you apologize if what you did was so noble? Why would you apologize and be like, I take full accountability for the fact that I did this and it was wrong?

46:47

Well, it seems to be at this level of exam is they're looking for people with leadership qualities. So of course, you can see how the anti black racism is just going to be rampant in that scenario. So one of the things they say about the interviews, is, so you have these tests, and that's going to be about policy and procedure and the law and all of that, and then you you presumably pass that. And then as part of the process is also this interview. And then part of that is them to say if you have these leadership qualities, because sergeants are going to now be like, you know, they're like leader group leaders, right, like they enter into the police hierarchy. And so we know, of course, black people will be seen as leaders in the same way. Your point being here, of course. So how does this help? So now black people in these leadership positions have all these white officers who already probably largely believe that white men can't even be officers anymore. You know, even though most of the forces white people, we know why people believe that we know when Peter slaley was in Ottawa, and like, just mentioned that systemic racism exists in the sense of like, our officers need to be aware that black people feel the police are racist, and consider that when they're involved in stopping black people or interacting black people just know that this is what they think and take account of that. And he got Nazi memes made about him. So you know, you're already dealing with that you also have, which hasn't been so much talked about, I don't think by the supporters of Clark, but it's certainly being talked about in the media, as they talk about this trial. One of the context is, of course, that the so called rank and file, whatever that means, are very resentful of the idea that those that are higher in police leadership, faceless consequences. So they're essentially saying, you know, we're on the front lines, from their point of view, they believe, of course, we know that when they kill Black people, when they beat black people, and they arrest children, you know, they should not be held accountable, because they're on the front line suffering and sacrificing for all of us, us, you know, that rhetoric. And they're basically saying that we have to take all these consequences when we're arresting somebody, and then the police are the public's mad at us because of how we did it. And then here's this admin, that doesn't have to take consequences when they do these things. So this is partly a class issue in the police, which is a really underlying issue in the police that people often don't take into account. This is how police unions work, right? When chiefs will sometimes for PR reasons attempt to say suspend a cop that is caught on camera beating a black person and is now in a PR nightmare. And then when the chief wants to suspend them, the union will come out. We know that the union in every city has come out with little leaks on their police chiefs, when they've acknowledged things like systemic racism or apologize and they always have that leak like we're we now can police and like, we just have to let Black people commit crimes and crime is up because we can't racially profile. So you know, there's a no confidence vote in Saunders by the rank and file. We know that police unions continually resist any kind of accountability for their members. And this is also going on because she's not a so called ordinary cop. As they said she's one step from a deputy. She's possibly a future chief. And so you have these lower level cops being like, wow, so you're not going to punish her so it's okay for her to do that. Which is of course the Class tensions within the police. And then you have like, yeah, this idea that you want people to be chosen as leaders, that now everybody's gonna be side eyeing and being like, oh, you know, are you here? Because you cheated. And this is a point that's actually made in the hearing that how can she appear in court? How could she possibly be in a leadership position with police where you have a rank and file that's going to feel like she's unfairly there? We're going to have Yes, racist cops that already believe black people are incompetent are going to be extra rude and racist to her? What job is she not going to be doing? What effect is she going to have? So if you believe your role in the police service, is that you are this unicorn? That's here to be a bridge between the black community and the police? How can you possibly be effective, you might as well walk away like I did, just like, as I said, I mean, there's so many things she could have done, if she was going to blow up her career, that would have been of actual benefit so many things, she could have whistle blown on everything from the interview process down to like disciplinary records, corruption within the police racism toward the country going to take them when they call us racial slurs in the briefing room, whatever they're doing, we don't have any of that, and she's not going to be able to be effective as a cop herself.

Desmond Cole 51:12

I don't know how she's gonna get along in there. Now, even if they do spare her career, well, she'll

Idil Abdillahi 51:17

be getting along just fine, because I assume she'll still be getting a paycheck. And even touched on that, right, like so even though they may demote her, I don't even know if that will impact her pay or otherwise. But regardless, it will a little, we're gonna be getting paid no, yeah,

Desmond Cole 51:30

it'll probably affect her pay a little, and it'll affect, or priests future prospects. What was really interesting was that at the hearing, when Clarke was testifying, she talked about how she was sorry, that she has learned her lesson and would never do this again, and how she intends to continue rising up as high as she can go in the force. And I was kind of like, Yeah, that's actually what this is all about for you, then isn't it? It's about the idea that maybe you were on your way to Deputy CI, for example, which is a nice job with an even better salary, and probably benefits and other perks. And that's all lost. And all of these people who are out here parading for you are living vicariously through you. They wake up in the morning, and they see that Stacy Clark is now a deputy chief. And they pat themselves on the back because they can remember a time in this country where that was impossible. And I get it, I just where are we getting free? When's the part where we get free?

El Jones 52:26

Actually, this funny bit, because like, there's actually a section in the hearing, where they keep reading all the articles, particularly true 2020, where she's quoted. And so part of like, what she's essentially saying is I went out to the media for you guys to do this PR and be like, I'm a black cop. And it was really sickening for me to see George Floyd die. And, you know, as a cop, this is really hard for me. And they're essentially like she was used as a spokesperson for the police.

Desmond Cole 52:55

She used herself as a spokesperson. And that's the thing, all these black people in here. This is what you're signing up for when you go into the institution that you're now telling us all and whistleblowing to us is racist except she didn't whistle blow she got caught. But like we already know the shits racist, but this is what you're willing to do. You're not being used, you are wanting them to use your blackness because you're getting something out of it. But my beef isn't even so much with her as it is the like, very, very disgusting way that people are trying to defend what she's done. And to hold it up as some paragon of blackness,

Idil Abdillahi 53:29

I have so many thoughts because there's like so much that was said, so let's be clear. Okay. And I don't I think I think we all know that. In general, these things happen in workplaces. We know this. Right? And I don't think that I don't think that any of us are I shouldn't maybe speak for anyone, but I'll say me. Like, I don't think that I'm under any illusion that of course, these things happen in workplaces. I'm not under any illusion that like, you know that, you know, white people give each other answers or whatever else, right. But I think one of the things that's like, just disturbing for me, is like if she apologized and all of these things, like, why didn't she just eat it? Why didn't she just eat it and not have to make it about, you know, both anti blackness being the cause of why she did it. And then anti blackness being sort of the like, a part of like, why she's experiencing a certain kind of like repercussion or discipline, right? And again, I want to make clear, like, of course, there's anti black racism within the police force, this black woman has probably faced it facing it will continue to face it in and outside of the police force. Again, that is not the thing, right? For me, it's just kind of like, is this leveraging, right like, I don't know, like, you know what I mean, like you could have just kept pushing, you know, and then on the other hand, like I think l talked about earlier. I Um, the number of other cases, obviously, that have happened in the past that certainly I'm sure we many of us didn't see in the news in this way. And I'm sure a part of it is that she is a superintendent a part of it, of course, I'm sure is that that that she's blocking, I'm assuming that these other folks might be blocked. And that that in and of itself is its own theater and display, and all these other things, right. But the kind of like, the part where I'm stuck, y'all the part where I'm just like, real, real stuck is around am I to believe that there's that there would have been no other way for us to think about remedying this issue, whether it's about having like a need to prepare these black officers, whether it's a need to, like address any kind of like, you know, equity issue in terms of like them, them having access to information, preparing them, clearly. She was like mentoring people. She was doing all this other stuff, right. But it's this idea that like, like, am I am I to believe that this is the only kind of like a solution in this process? And then the final final thing, I think, I want to say just the piece around like the the advocacy, right? And so I think, I think one thing that's really clear, is that people advocate for people that they think are deserving of that kind of advocacy. Right? So superintendent Clark is deserving of that kind of advocacy because of the kind of job that she's in, because of the kind of importance that we place on that job. Because we think that that means something to us in terms of like who she is and what she represents not just, you know, within the police force, but then, you know, to certain parts of the black community, etc, right? So she is the kind of like, right candidate that that is deserving of this, right. And that's absolutely not lost on me in terms of like, how we show up who we show up for right? And not just that, but like how we decide to show up for those folks. Right? So is it that we decided to show up and just say, well, no matter what, right, you are, right, and we're going to be here, and we're going to show up for you like I think that there's something, there's something about that, like kind of convoluted commitment that I think is interesting, but again, is like very differentially and like specifically applied to certain people and not others. And so I think, you know, like, that's just, yeah, I'll leave that there. Anyway.

Desmond Cole 57:31

I think that that is an amazing place to close this out. But like, we had to, we've, we've been seeing all these things online. And I think we've been having some personal conversations about like, Yo, what is happening? What is going on here? And I'm glad that we got to hash this out a little bit. I know that, as usual. And I've already heard some of this, people are going to be like, Oh, there they go again. And I'm like, Nah, there y'all go again, actually, coming to the rescue of somebody who put themselves in the situation and wants to weaponize our community to prevent themselves from facing accountability for what they did. So to everybody listening to this, who's like, There they go again, although they never really listened to what we say. There you go again. And we got to talk about these things. Because the black community is not the monolith that it's being painted as we don't all sit out here and be like Stacy Clark shouldn't face any consequences. And one day, black leaders will take the police to a more righteous place where white people will be punished instead. I think that's one opinion. It's obviously one opinion. It's just not the only opinion.

El Jones 58:41

All I know is that, you know, when black students are getting dragged out of encampments, and when black people are getting beat down outside of tents, I just hope it's a black cop is doing that.

Desmond Cole 58:53

The Beat you're listening to is by the artist on youtube name. P U N G Z said I'm gonna put a link to that in the show notes, as well as a link to all the media that we referenced in creating this piece. Do you want to contact us email us at Yes, everything ca@gmail.com Thanks for listening and see you soon.

Music credit: PUNGZ ->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUd0ySDkx2g

News clips

Global News

https://globalnews.ca/video/8535471/toronto-police-superintendent-stacy-clarke-facing-7-charges-under-the-police-services-act

https://globalnews.ca/video/10478364/lawyers-argue-over-potential-demotion-for-toronto-police-superintendent-stacy-clarke

https://globalnews.ca/news/7042407/stacy-clarke-toronto-police-george-floyd/

https://globalnews.ca/news/7637931/1st-black-female-toronto-police-superintendent-reflects/

CP24

https://www.cp24.com/news/it-was-my-tipping-point-stacy-clarke-says-toronto-police-rejection-of-black-promotions-prompted-her-misconduct-1.6880536